Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

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Re: Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

Postby youthathletics » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:42 am

Typical Lax Dad wrote:This is how these folks operate

For the past year, Miller has been quietly gutting the U.S. refugee program, slashing the number of people allowed into the country to the lowest level in decades. “His name hasn’t been on anything,” says a former U.S. official who worked on refugee issues. “He is working behind the scenes, he has planted all of his people in all of these positions, he is on the phone with them all of the time, and he is creating a side operation that will circumvent the normal, transparent policy process.” And he is succeeding.


Wake up.

You make it sound like this is some "one-off" type stuff. It is in businesses and boardrooms all over the world, it is how the elitists attempt stay above the fray. Why do you think so many choose to go to schools with such a strong "alumni" network, often touted more than the education itself.
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Re: Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

Postby youthathletics » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:03 am

holmes435 wrote:
youthathletics wrote:Point of my post was Diane Feinstein agreeing the border leaks like Swiss cheese.

For those that do not agree with a wall/border, please share your fixes. And no, we all pretty much agree everify going live will cause significant economic problems across the country.


Depends on your definition of swiss cheese. Are 15,000 illegal immigrants crossing the semi-open border per year swiss cheese for a country of 350 Mil? 150k? Where is the line? They're still paying sales tax, gas taxes, and virtually all taxes aside from federal income tax where they may not even pay federal taxes even if they were citizens.

E-verify is one part of the fix, like a-fan says. Simplifying and expediting the immigrant and asylum process is another - if we make it a lot easier to legally apply for citizenship, then we vastly reduce illegal immigration. We deport those who don't quality and they get on a DNA / Fingerprint / Facial recognition list and those who qualify are some of the hardest working citizens in the country as has been proven time and again. Like the gun debate or the abortion debate, if you outlaw things, only outlaws will do them. The same thing applies to illegal immigration. If you make it nearly impossible to apply for citizenship (saw someone recently take 19.5 years to get citizenship just due to red tape) and residency, then people apply for asylum or enter the country illegally.

Trump's goal isn't to reduce illegal immigration. It's to reduce immigration unless you're a white Eastern European / USSR bride. If you have the greatest nation on earth, the beacon on the hill, the American Dream, you're going to attract people willing to work to achieve that. If you deny them the opportunity, they're going to work hard for their children to become citizens to achieve that. Simple stuff, really.

If you want to go beyond our borders, then we need to stabilize and help countries so their refugees don't stream towards us. But that's more a World Cop / Spreading Democracy / Redistributing Wealth idea that is another matter entirely. At the very least not toppling stable governments is a good start. We broke a lot of countries in Central America over the decades and refused to own up to it.


Holmes - not sure if you saw my post a week or so ago (LINK HERE).

Your opinion about Trump wanting to limit immigration does not sit well, only because this topic has been on the political map for decades. Trump is not doing anything different OTHER than actually doing something. The wall will cost decimal places as compared to our budget, cause next to no pain and suffering for anyone involved, and forces the bottle neck for migrants through a place of filter and legal transition, which ONLY solves a piece of the problem.

You know damned well, as soon as we deport someone without their family in tow, leaving their children unattended, the $hit is gonna hit the fan, again. I believe the idea I put forth above in the link solves deportation for the most part.

Bottom line, we need a starting point, and IMO one with a rigid foundation from which to build off of. Enough of kicking the can down the road.
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Re: Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

Postby Typical Lax Dad » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:41 am

youthathletics wrote:
Typical Lax Dad wrote:This is how these folks operate

For the past year, Miller has been quietly gutting the U.S. refugee program, slashing the number of people allowed into the country to the lowest level in decades. “His name hasn’t been on anything,” says a former U.S. official who worked on refugee issues. “He is working behind the scenes, he has planted all of his people in all of these positions, he is on the phone with them all of the time, and he is creating a side operation that will circumvent the normal, transparent policy process.” And he is succeeding.


Wake up.

You make it sound like this is some "one-off" type stuff. It is in businesses and boardrooms all over the world, it is how the elitists attempt stay above the fray. Why do you think so many choose to go to schools with such a strong "alumni" network, often touted more than the education itself.


I can't speak for so many but I can speak for myself.......I know with my own kids, there were many factors to consider when looking at schools and "alumni" network was towards the bottom of the list of considerations.
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Re: Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

Postby dislaxxic » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:41 am

Trump’s Attorney General Nominee William Barr Built a Border Wall the Last Time He Ran the Justice Department. It Failed Miserably

Starting point?

How many false starts do you get before you're disqualified from the race?

..
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Re: Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

Postby a fan » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:19 pm

youthathletics wrote:Bottom line, we need a starting point, and IMO one with a rigid foundation from which to build off of. Enough of kicking the can down the road.

Where was this attitude in 2017? Or 2018?
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Re: Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

Postby youthathletics » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:20 pm

Intended consequences also have unintended consequences.

Border wall built in 1990s cut illegal immigration
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Re: Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

Postby youthathletics » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:30 pm

a fan wrote:
youthathletics wrote:Bottom line, we need a starting point, and IMO one with a rigid foundation from which to build off of. Enough of kicking the can down the road.

Where was this attitude in 2017? Or 2018?

I assumed it was coming as promised. I was on record in LP with it and even added that we could use an old air base or some type of transition area between entering while paperwork is processes, figuring out migrants special skills to help place them in the US workforce, instead of sending them on their way and expecting them to show up in court.

Which is also why I have also been on record as suggesting that neither side wants to make the first move out of fear that it might cause a win for the wrong side. If an all R vote leadership votes yes, they they are on the hook. If an all D votes yes, then they are on the hook.

If everyone hates Trump so much, this is the opportune time for the political left to be on record as completely against it, but the level headed compromising folks....then they have a political royal flush in their back pocket for eternity.
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Re: Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

Postby a fan » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:03 pm

youthathletics wrote:I assumed it was coming as promised.
You assumed wrong. And it's at Trump's feet for not getting it done while passing three enormous spending bills.

Opportunity, gone. Why have elections if you're not going to hold the guy you elected accountable for getting things done?

youthathletics wrote:If everyone hates Trump so much, this is the opportune time for the political left to be on record as completely against it, but the level headed compromising folks....then they have a political royal flush in their back pocket for eternity.
You're thinking like a Hillary supporter. Actual libs want to give Trump no quarter. Give him nothing. Remember how McConnell told his base that we wouldn't pass any legislation for six years....and then did it?

THAT is what libs want. They want their leaders to punish Trump. If that makes you cringe, you should have thought about that when Congressional Repbulicans American right doing the same thing for six years, feigning fiscal prudence.

Remember, the American left and right have been calling the shots for the last decade, wholly ignoring moderates like me.

Assuming that they want moderation and compromise is a baaaaad assumption. The left wants a fight just as bad as the Trumpists do....
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Re: Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

Postby youthathletics » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:14 pm

a fan wrote:
youthathletics wrote:If everyone hates Trump so much, this is the opportune time for the political left to be on record as completely against it, but the level headed compromising folks....then they have a political royal flush in their back pocket for eternity.
You're thinking like a Hillary supporter. Actual libs want to give Trump no quarter. Give him nothing. Remember how McConnell told his base that we wouldn't pass any legislation for six years....and then did it?

THAT is what libs want. They want their leaders to punish Trump. If that makes you cringe, you should have thought about that when Congressional Repbulicans American right doing the same thing for six years, feigning fiscal prudence.

Remember, the American left and right have been calling the shots for the last decade, wholly ignoring moderates like me.

Assuming that they want moderation and compromise is a baaaaad assumption. The left wants a fight just as bad as the Trumpists do....

I wont disagree, but you also missed a very significant piece of the equation. Many from his own party were even against him during 17-18 R majority. I am no historian but I wonder how often or rare it is to see an incoming president disliked, feared, under investigation, and being micro-managed by multiple layers of political and federal institutions.
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Re: Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

Postby a fan » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:25 pm

youthathletics wrote: I am no historian but I wonder how often or rare it is to see an incoming president disliked, feared, under investigation, and being micro-managed by multiple layers of political and federal institutions.
It's common. Off the top of my head, Nixon, Reagan, Clinton, and Trump were disliked and under Federal and/or Congressional investigation. Watergate, Iran-Contra, Whitewater, and Russian Collusion, respectively.

Trump fans are trying desperately to convince folks that this investigation thing is a shiny new thing. Nope. Not even close.
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Re: Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

Postby old salt » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:34 pm

holmes435 wrote:
tech37 wrote:Trump's goal isn't to reduce illegal immigration. It's to reduce immigration unless you're a white Eastern European / USSR bride. Spreading more lies. Where is the proof of such a claim...is this simply your opinion, a way to pile on, linking immigration with collusion? The goal is a merit-based system as I posted on a prior page.


Yes, it's my opinion, but it's not a lie. You have books worth of quotes by Trump himself about immigration, both legal and illegal. I'm not sure where you get collusion in all this (sounds like an obsession), I was making fun of him marrying multiple Eastern European women.

The merit-based system would effectively cut legal immigration in half. And he's bemoaned people coming from sh*thole countries and Mexico and Central America while saying we should have more people coming from places like Norway. I'd say that supports my opinion pretty darn well.

A merit based system does not have to cut legal immigration in half. Quotas can be increased, as needed.
It keeps faith with applicants who have followed the law, waited in line & does not reward those who act unlawfully.
It provides a way to manage, regulate & legalize residency & citizenship.
Our current system is an unenforceable corrupt sham, riven with perverse incentives.
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Re: Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

Postby jhu72 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:06 pm

tech37 wrote:
RedFromMI wrote:
tech37 wrote:
RedFromMI wrote:Trump/Miller/Kelly/Nielsen/Sessions have done what they can to break the system you quote. The ultimate goal anyway is to drastically reduce _any_ immigration from places where people are not fitting the "looks and acts like me as a white person" model. They also _define_ anyone who comes across the border without going through their draconian process as illegal, even though the treaties the US has signed contradict that assertion.

What absolute paranoid, fear mongering, horse $hit. Is this the BS demagoguery MSNBC is peddling now? Wake up!, it's not the 1800s...we're not immersed in an industrial revolution, in need of bodies to work the factories. The goal is to have a merit-based system similar to Canada and Australia. The people you name are simply trying to gain control over an uncontrolled mess left over from the last administration. Open borders, aka catch and release, is not a solution.


I would say that the attitude of the present Trump administration is the actual paranoia/fear mongering/horsesh*t. Stop spreading these lies..."The ultimate goal anyway is to drastically reduce _any_ immigration from places where people are not fitting the "looks and acts like me as a white person" model." It is not a question of race but of merit. "The ultimate goal" is a merit-based system. A merit-based system is not perfect but a pragmatic modern day solution that makes sense, a solution that will save the country from "catch and release," "open border," "sanctuary city" mentality. The provable lies that come out of them regarding the nature of the problem (which they mostly have created themselves in taking away the very successful program the Obama administration put into place to handle asylum claims) tells me all I need to know about the issue. "very successful program"? You're joking right?


"Salam’s case is that America’s legal immigration system needs be reformed on lines roughly similar to what the Trump administration now and others before it have long advocated: changing the rules to place a greater emphasis on the economic skills of immigrants while deemphasizing the role played by family “reunification” would ensure both that new immigrants are an economic plus to the economy and, more importantly, that they are more likely to integrate into the American cultural mainstream."

https://www.theamericanconservative.com ... on-system/


There is near universal agreement, even in Washington democratic ranks, as to the long term desirable features of the immigration reform. Generally under the heading of "merit based". The problem is, that is not what the right wing extremes want. Priority one, DEPORT EVERYONE, no excuses, that have gotten here illegal if non-white! This is non-negotiable. You never get to the long term solution dealing with immigration. You can spin it any way you like, but the fact is, a large fraction of the republican / Trumpnista base don't care about merit based immigration, so long as merit does not include the categories race, country of origin and skin color! They hold hostage moving forward with something that makes more sense, because they are caught in the past.
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Re: Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

Postby youthathletics » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:07 pm

a fan wrote:
youthathletics wrote: I am no historian but I wonder how often or rare it is to see an incoming president disliked, feared, under investigation, and being micro-managed by multiple layers of political and federal institutions.
It's common. Off the top of my head, Nixon, Reagan, Clinton, and Trump were disliked and under Federal and/or Congressional investigation. Watergate, Iran-Contra, Whitewater, and Russian Collusion, respectively.

Trump fans are trying desperately to convince folks that this investigation thing is a shiny new thing. Nope. Not even close.

Iran-Contra period started in 85' - around the end of his first term, Watergate was 2 plus years after Nixon Started, those are some quite dull comparisons. ;)
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Re: Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

Postby jhu72 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:18 pm

cradleandshoot wrote:
jhu72 wrote:Total red herring is the discussion of what tool can or can't cut through the wall designs. NO MATTER WHAT DESIGN THEY CHOOSE, A TECHNIC WILL BE DEVELOPED TO BREACH THEM, and do it quickly. How many years are these walls meant to work for? Am I going to be asked to spend another 25 billion in 5 years to build a new wall that doesn't look like swiss cheese, just so I can spend another 25 billion 3 years after that? Patton's maxim about the futility of reliance on fixed fortifications has never been more true. We are in the age of exponential change in these types of technologies. Use your imagination, those attempting to breach the walls will most certainly do so! Any wall we can build requires technologies capable of cutting and shaping the materials, easily and ultimately cheaply. Those technologies are always made portable and quickly deployable in a short period of time. The useful life of these walls is less than the time it takes to deploy along the entire boarder.

Ultimately it takes man power to stop these people. It is less costly and more effective to use electronic means to detect and then deploy manpower to interdict.

Of course someone will develop a technique. It won't come from someone dragging a sawz all up to the fence and trying to cut thru it. You can do it but the process makes a lot of noise and takes a lot of time. The point that I brought up was that in the article they claimed the fence could be breached easily by sawing through it. The picture clearly showed the cuts were made by a torch. Anyone could demonstrate this for themselves. Take a small piece of 1/4 inch tube steel. Pack it with a 1/2 inch piece of rebar in concrete. See how long it takes you to cut through it. You will find out it is a pain in the ass. That is even assuming that the steel has not been hardened. I have had to drill out damaged locks in vending machines where the top end plug locks have a hardened core. It usually takes about an hour and a bunch of drill bits and a lot of oil to drill the 1 inch core out. IMO these metal posts are engineered to a degree to keep the average bear from getting through them in 5 minutes. More dedicated and sophisticated tools and techniques are out there. The objective is to prevent 95% of the amatuers from getting through. You have to remember that folks on the other side can see through these slats. It is not like you can do your dirty work and not be noticed.



With the advent of the Internet -- there are no amateurs left. Everyone has the benefit of everyone else's experience when it come to such matters. As far as noise and time are concerned, these are not issue for very large stretches of the boarder. Make as much noise as you like for as long as you like without electronic sensors present or deployment of human manpower along the boarder.
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Re: Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

Postby holmes435 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:36 pm

old salt wrote:A merit based system does not have to cut legal immigration in half. Quotas can be increased, as needed.
It keeps faith with applicants who have followed the law, waited in line & does not reward those who act unlawfully.
It provides a way to manage, regulate & legalize residency & citizenship.
Our current system is an unenforceable corrupt sham, riven with perverse incentives.


How does a merit based system do all the things you say? Is it going to somehow speed up the process and make it less corrupt, or just decide in a different way who gets in and who doesn't? Where are people going to stay while we evaluate their merits?

My issue with a merit based system, at least on the questions I've seen proposed in the RAISE Act, is that it is more a luck-based system. Are you coming from somewhere that has a decent education system? Do you already have a good-paying job? Are you coming from an area where you can learn cutting-edge things? Do you have a ton of money? Did you learn multiple languages?

You have to be pretty lucky to have been born in an area or family that gives you the resources to qualify - even with increased quotas who knows if we'd see an increase in qualified applicants. I know my great grandparents, fleeing Imperial Russian rule and bad conditions in Eastern Europe, wouldn't have been accepted under a merit-based system. But they were hard workers and were seeking the American Dream. Their son graduated with a Chemical Engineering degree while playing football, had a few patents to his name, and was a job-creator running a food processing company for years. Their daughters also ended up with post-grad degrees each in a time when most women weren't even going to college. With a merit-based system, you lose those people willing to work hard to seek out a better life for themselves and their kids.

You are correct in that our current system is an unenforceable corrupt sham, riven with perverse incentives. We could at least fund the parts that are working correctly (like the Family Case Management Program that Trump cancelled), and increase the number judges and people processing cases to make the process run smoother and faster.
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Re: Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

Postby a fan » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:04 pm

youthathletics wrote:Iran-Contra period started in 85' - around the end of his first term, Watergate was 2 plus years after Nixon Started, those are some quite dull comparisons. ;)

Wait---so in your mind, my 'other Presidents have been investigated' citation doesn't count, and are bad comparisons because....they didn't happen at the exact same time in each President's tenure?

You lost me.
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Re: Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

Postby a fan » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:22 pm

In case anyone here just can't seem to square why, given the context of 2019..... the libs don't want a wall. I give the snack-tacular Pat Buchanan and his lovely, heartwarming essay about immigration. It's a delightful read.

The more multiracial, multiethnic, multicultural, multilingual America becomes -- the less it looks like Ronald Reagan's America -- the more dependably Democratic it will become. The Democratic Party is hostile to white men, because the smaller the share of the US population that white men become, the sooner that Democrats inherit the national estate."

The Democratic Party is hostile to white men, because the smaller the share of the U.S. population that white men become, the sooner that Democrats inherit the national estate.


So....to answer your question, MDlax...the Republicans are going to double down.

Sickening. Indefensible. Gee, I wonder why the libs keep saying this wall and Trump's plans are racist in nature? They must be kwayzee, right?
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Re: Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

Postby Typical Lax Dad » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:36 pm

a fan wrote:In case anyone here just can't seem to square why, given the context of 2019..... the libs don't want a wall. I give the snack-tacular Pat Buchanan and his lovely, heartwarming essay about immigration. It's a delightful read.

The more multiracial, multiethnic, multicultural, multilingual America becomes -- the less it looks like Ronald Reagan's America -- the more dependably Democratic it will become. The Democratic Party is hostile to white men, because the smaller the share of the US population that white men become, the sooner that Democrats inherit the national estate."

The Democratic Party is hostile to white men, because the smaller the share of the U.S. population that white men become, the sooner that Democrats inherit the national estate.


So....to answer your question, MDlax...the Republicans are going to double down.

Sickening. Indefensible. Gee, I wonder why the libs keep saying this wall and Trump's plans are racist in nature? They must be kwayzee, right?


Stephen Miller / Seb Gorka want the county to get back to its natural racial balance.
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Re: Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

Postby old salt » Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:47 pm

holmes435 wrote:
old salt wrote:A merit based system does not have to cut legal immigration in half. Quotas can be increased, as needed.
It keeps faith with applicants who have followed the law, waited in line & does not reward those who act unlawfully.
It provides a way to manage, regulate & legalize residency & citizenship.
Our current system is an unenforceable corrupt sham, riven with perverse incentives.


How does a merit based system do all the things you say? Is it going to somehow speed up the process and make it less corrupt, or just decide in a different way who gets in and who doesn't? Where are people going to stay while we evaluate their merits?

My issue with a merit based system, at least on the questions I've seen proposed in the RAISE Act, is that it is more a luck-based system. Are you coming from somewhere that has a decent education system? Do you already have a good-paying job? Are you coming from an area where you can learn cutting-edge things? Do you have a ton of money? Did you learn multiple languages?

You have to be pretty lucky to have been born in an area or family that gives you the resources to qualify - even with increased quotas who knows if we'd see an increase in qualified applicants. I know my great grandparents, fleeing Imperial Russian rule and bad conditions in Eastern Europe, wouldn't have been accepted under a merit-based system. But they were hard workers and were seeking the American Dream. Their son graduated with a Chemical Engineering degree while playing football, had a few patents to his name, and was a job-creator running a food processing company for years. Their daughters also ended up with post-grad degrees each in a time when most women weren't even going to college. With a merit-based system, you lose those people willing to work hard to seek out a better life for themselves and their kids.

You are correct in that our current system is an unenforceable corrupt sham, riven with perverse incentives. We could at least fund the parts that are working correctly (like the Family Case Management Program that Trump cancelled), and increase the number judges and people processing cases to make the process run smoother and faster.

Today your great grandparents would wait decades to gain residence, if at all (...they'd be presumed to be Russian spies).
How would they view thousands of migrants from Central America cutting in line ahead of them, ...to join family members already here, who did the same.
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Re: Who is supporting the immigrant caravan?

Postby MDlaxfan76 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:22 pm

a fan wrote:
youthathletics wrote:Iran-Contra period started in 85' - around the end of his first term, Watergate was 2 plus years after Nixon Started, those are some quite dull comparisons. ;)

Wait---so in your mind, my 'other Presidents have been investigated' citation doesn't count, and are bad comparisons because....they didn't happen at the exact same time in each President's tenure?

You lost me.


Indeed, strange logic youth.

Listen, do something illegal and you get investigated. Simple.

Pretty much every President has a big chunk of America thinking he's a bum from day one.

You guys voted for a lying piece of poop, under the notion that he would be "disruptive"; what did you expect?
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