The Mueller Investigation

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Re: The Mueller Investigation

Postby MDlaxfan76 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:14 am

tech37 wrote:Additionally... it could be that, Halon's Razor, a concept ggait likes to refer to on occasion, could explain Trump's behavior re Putin.


I don't think it's entirely binary, stupidity versus malice.

I think Trinity's view has a much higher than would be typical probability of being correct.

But, you're right tech37 that even so, "stupidity" could be very involved as well.

Rather than "malice' (against the United States), it could well be more of: stupidity, greed, arrogance, jealousy, insecurity, hubris, delusion, and back to greed and stupidity.

The "half wittingly" label seems pretty apt, in a way.

Is Trump aware that his actions are dirty? Or is he so delusional and stupid that he truly doesn't understand?

On that, I do think it's binary and the answer is 'yes", he lies to cover up his misdeeds. He knows enough to at least attempt the cover-up, inept as it has been.
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Re: The Mueller Investigation

Postby jhu72 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:35 am

I believe they were discussing adoption. Putin's adoption of Trump. :lol:

Trump and his traitor tots all need to be rendered to Levenworth where they can be serviced by Bubba twice a day. I am sure he will be able to get light duty because of his bone spurs.
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Re: The Mueller Investigation

Postby jhu72 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:40 am

MDlaxfan76 wrote:
tech37 wrote:Additionally... it could be that, Halon's Razor, a concept ggait likes to refer to on occasion, could explain Trump's behavior re Putin.


I don't think it's entirely binary, stupidity versus malice.

I think Trinity's view has a much higher than would be typical probability of being correct.

But, you're right tech37 that even so, "stupidity" could be very involved as well.

Rather than "malice' (against the United States), it could well be more of: stupidity, greed, arrogance, jealousy, insecurity, hubris, delusion, and back to greed and stupidity.

The "half wittingly" label seems pretty apt, in a way.

Is Trump aware that his actions are dirty? Or is he so delusional and stupid that he truly doesn't understand?

On that, I do think it's binary and the answer is 'yes", he lies to cover up his misdeeds. He knows enough to at least attempt the cover-up, inept as it has been.



Half wittingly is full wittingly for someone with Trump's brain. :lol:
Last edited by jhu72 on Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Mueller Investigation

Postby jhu72 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:50 am

How much longer can the republicans in congress keep doubling down on Orange Duce before people start calling them traitors?
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Re: The Mueller Investigation

Postby dislaxxic » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:27 am

Not much longer. or so a reasonable person would believe...

But President Pence? JEEBUS.

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Re: The Mueller Investigation

Postby Chips O'Toole » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:39 am

old salt wrote:Mueller acknowledged to Dowd, multiple times, that the investigation hampered the President's ability to conduct foreign policy & that he wouldn't let any grass grow under him.

I believe Mueller is a Patriot, in addition to a Prosecutor, & that if our CinC is compromised by the Russians, he would have explicity told us so, by now.


These two statements are actually conflicting. Mueller's comment to Dowd suggests that if he had NOT found anything compromising on Trump at this point, he would have explicitly told us by now, so that the President can get on with governing the country. So the logical inference is in fact the opposite of yours, i.e. he must have found something.

I don't think Mueller's silence can be interpreted one way or the other in terms of Trump's likely exposure. I just think his ongoing silence is hugely problematic. When I say his time's up, I don't mean to suggest he should wrap this up -- that could take years. But he does need to indict someone in Trump's inner circle (Roger Stone, Don Jr., Eric Prince -- he has plenty of options) for conspiring with a foreign government to influence the election -- his core purpose. We need a detailed indictment that makes plenty of references to Individual 1 and explains how the Trump campaign was involved with foreign agents in campaign interference. That would tell us all a lot about where this investigation is heading. We need that to happen, and now. The longer it takes, the more damage Trump does and the more inclined I am to agree with Salty that there must not be a provable crime (I will never believe no crimes were committed, only that the evidence isn't sufficient). If Mueller has insufficient evidence to indict anyone at this stage, I believe he should come out and say so. We need a status report.
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Re: The Mueller Investigation

Postby Trinity » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:57 am

I think Mueller has evidence he can show and evidence he cannot. He’s building what he can show to protect the rest. We have allies. Putin would love to explore How they know what they know.
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Re: The Mueller Investigation

Postby a fan » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:10 pm

jhu72 wrote:How much longer can the republicans in congress keep doubling down on Orange Duce before people start calling them traitors?

80% approval among Republican voters.

My answer is: is there a length of time longer than forever? ;)


As long as that number holds......
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Re: The Mueller Investigation

Postby dislaxxic » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:29 pm

80% among "self-identifying" Republican voters, no?

That number is diminishing rapidly, correct? When these percentages are thrown out, i feel like they are misleading. It makes it sound like "80% of half of all voters" and i suspect that this is not a correct way to state it...

Still, its a number MUCH larger than it SHOULD be...

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Re: The Mueller Investigation

Postby a fan » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:42 pm

dislaxxic wrote:80% among "self-identifying" Republican voters, no?

That number is diminishing rapidly, correct?

..
No. It's been fairly steady for two years. If you want to argue that Gallup is off by a little, yeah ok. But consistently polling at

And I misspoke. Gallups last poll, Dec 17-22 put his approval number for Republican voters at 89% If anything, Trump's support is ticking up, not down.


THIS is why Trump waited for the Dems to take power before demanding his wall. Trump is playing Republican voters like a fiddle. Frankly, I'm embarrassed for them.


https://news.gallup.com/poll/203198/pre ... trump.aspx
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Re: The Mueller Investigation

Postby foreverlax » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:48 pm

Even Rasmussen has him losing ground recently....

-12 for job approval

-20 for direction of country
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Re: The Mueller Investigation

Postby jhu72 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:07 pm

Trinity wrote:I think Mueller has evidence he can show and evidence he cannot. He’s building what he can show to protect the rest. We have allies. Putin would love to explore How they know what they know.


As I have said from the very beginning, we and allied intelligence sources have had the story since the very beginning. Mueller's job is to show the laws being broken without reference to the intelligence sources. He has had a road map since day 1. Everyday now we are seeing how right Mensch and others in the intelligence twitersphere have been. Not perfect, but pretty good on the details.
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Re: The Mueller Investigation

Postby jhu72 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:11 pm

a fan wrote:
dislaxxic wrote:80% among "self-identifying" Republican voters, no?

That number is diminishing rapidly, correct?

..
No. It's been fairly steady for two years. If you want to argue that Gallup is off by a little, yeah ok. But consistently polling at

And I misspoke. Gallups last poll, Dec 17-22 put his approval number for Republican voters at 89% If anything, Trump's support is ticking up, not down.


THIS is why Trump waited for the Dems to take power before demanding his wall. Trump is playing Republican voters like a fiddle. Frankly, I'm embarrassed for them.


https://news.gallup.com/poll/203198/pre ... trump.aspx


I think there is also evidence the republican share of the voting population is declining. Trump is getting a bigger share of a declining total. When he goes he will have 100% of what remains.
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Re: The Mueller Investigation

Postby old salt » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:18 pm

Chips O'Toole wrote:The longer it takes, the more damage Trump does and the more inclined I am to agree with Salty that there must not be a provable crime (I will never believe no crimes were committed, only that the evidence isn't sufficient). If Mueller has insufficient evidence to indict anyone at this stage, I believe he should come out and say so. We need a status report.

You misstate my position. I've repeatedly said I'm prepared to believe anything about Trump & his cronies,.
I just need to see more solid evidence than we've seen to date.

Based on what we've seen, over 2 years in, there remain other less sinister explanations,
...of the halfwitted or unwitting variety.

I'm most persuaded by the actions & policies of Trump's Admin vs Russia. His political enemies keep obsessing about what he said during the campaign, & his defiant rhetoric since -- rather than what he does.

We are pushing Russia to the brink -- economically & militarily, driven by our domestic political civil war.
These are not sufficient grounds to devolve into another costly, dangerous Cold War. Our EU/NATO allies get that.
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Re: The Mueller Investigation

Postby Chips O'Toole » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:55 pm

old salt wrote:
Chips O'Toole wrote:The longer it takes, the more damage Trump does and the more inclined I am to agree with Salty that there must not be a provable crime (I will never believe no crimes were committed, only that the evidence isn't sufficient).

You misstate my position. I've repeatedly said I'm prepared to believe anything about Trump & his cronies,.
I just need to see more solid evidence than we've seen to date.


If I misstated your position, it's only because you did, but I can understand your impulse to hedge right now. You said "I believe Mueller is a Patriot, in addition to a Prosecutor, & that if our CinC is compromised by the Russians, he would have explicitly told us so, by now."

Besides, you can believe that there must not be provable crimes, or else Mueller would have told us by now, and also be prepared to believe anything about Trump. Those aren't conflicting at all.
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Re: The Mueller Investigation

Postby foreverlax » Mon Jan 14, 2019 1:59 pm

Chips O'Toole wrote:
old salt wrote:
Chips O'Toole wrote:The longer it takes, the more damage Trump does and the more inclined I am to agree with Salty that there must not be a provable crime (I will never believe no crimes were committed, only that the evidence isn't sufficient).

You misstate my position. I've repeatedly said I'm prepared to believe anything about Trump & his cronies,.
I just need to see more solid evidence than we've seen to date.


If I misstated your position, it's only because you did, but I can understand your impulse to hedge right now. You said "I believe Mueller is a Patriot, in addition to a Prosecutor, & that if our CinC is compromised by the Russians, he would have explicitly told us so, by now."

Besides, you can believe that there must not be provable crimes, or else Mueller would have told us by now, and also be prepared to believe anything about Trump. Those aren't conflicting at all.


What happened to "Deep State trying to take out a duly elected POTUS"?
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Re: The Mueller Investigation

Postby ggait » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:11 pm

Until we hear from Mueller, all possibilities remain possible.

Odds are, though, that the story will not be a #10 -- Trump is a Manchurian Candidate mole in the Oval Office.

To me, it is preposterous to think that the story will be a #1 -- innocent coincidences and a partisan Deep State out to get Trump. The tidal wave of lies about dozens of Russia interactions rules this one out for me.

Very likely that the story will be in the middle, but still quite bad. Trump's not working "for" Russia. But Trump is working for Trump (not America), and working "with" or "not against" Russia makes sense for Trump personally. No surprise -- Trump will do anything and work with anyone if it lines his pockets and serves his interests. If it helps Trump, Trump will do it. He's pretty much unconstrained by shame or rules.

So I think it will be an amoral combination of greed and sleazy self-interest by Trump and by his merry band of like-minded self-dealing opportunists. I'm sure Putin has compromising info on Trump (likely financial in nature). But working transactionally with Putin just makes sense for Trump. I mean if helping Putin helps Trump, why wouldn't he do it? No doubt there will a hefty dose of arrogance and stupidity too.
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Re: The Mueller Investigation

Postby Trinity » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:13 pm

Manhattan DA Cyrus Vance has some explaining to do. How the NYC rich walk free.
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/ny ... story.html
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Re: The Mueller Investigation

Postby jhu72 » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:30 pm

ggait wrote:Until we hear from Mueller, all possibilities remain possible.

Odds are, though, that the story will not be a #10 -- Trump is a Manchurian Candidate mole in the Oval Office.

To me, it is preposterous to think that the story will be a #1 -- innocent coincidences and a partisan Deep State out to get Trump. The tidal wave of lies about dozens of Russia interactions rules this one out for me.

Very likely that the story will be in the middle, but still quite bad. Trump's not working "for" Russia. But Trump is working for Trump (not America), and working "with" or "not against" Russia makes sense for Trump personally. No surprise -- Trump will do anything and work with anyone if it lines his pockets and serves his interests. If it helps Trump, Trump will do it. He's pretty much unconstrained by shame or rules.

So I think it will be an amoral combination of greed and sleazy self-interest by Trump and by his merry band of like-minded self-dealing opportunists. I'm sure Putin has compromising info on Trump (likely financial in nature). But working transactionally with Putin just makes sense for Trump. I mean if helping Putin helps Trump, why wouldn't he do it? No doubt there will a hefty dose of arrogance and stupidity too.


I agree with your analysis. I would add that Trump in many instances would not understand let alone know or care that what he was doing was treasonous in nature. I do not use the word "treasonous" in a legal sense but rather the commonly accepted meaning of betrayal.
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Re: The Mueller Investigation

Postby dislaxxic » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:01 pm

Apologies if this was posted previously...well worth the lengthy read...

What if the Obstruction Was the Collusion? On the New York Times’s Latest Bombshell [LawFare]

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